PDA

View Full Version : Offensive Quotes


maradnu
03-17-2008, 06:03 AM
Maybe I am a little bit touchy, but I ran into the following quote tonight.

"Christianity is completed Judaism or it is nothing." Benjamin Disraeli

As a Jew, I find that EXTREMELY offensive.

As I recall, Ann Coulter got in a great deal of trouble for saying something like that a few months ago.

The remark was deemed anti-semitic then. What makes it okay for this site now?

What is next - various quotes from Christian ministers calling Islam a religion of hate? Perhaps others demeaning Buddhism or Hinduism?

TONY BOY
03-18-2008, 05:39 PM
I don't see why you find it offensive, since it is more a historic comment, made by a Jew, who for whatever reason converted to the Anglican Church. It isn't meant as a "statement of fact", but tells us more about Disraeili, than anything else. There are a lot of offensive, or just silly quotes on this site. I just solve them, and move on. I say that as one whose mother's family was Jewish. If I thought about it, I would be offended by various "atheist" qoutes on this site. But I am not getting my theology, nor my philosophical education here, just entertaining myself. There have been some offensive quotes about the Catholic Church, and Christianity in general, here. So what? I just solve them and move to the next one. :)

maradnu
03-19-2008, 05:19 AM
Tony,

I see many pro-Christian quotes on the site, and ignore them as we both do the occasional atheistic quote. There is a difference between that which promotes and that which belittles or demeans.

The fact that you do not profess Judaism plays no small part, I'm sure, in your feeling that the comment is just hunky-dory. Disraeli was a Christian of Jewish ancestry, (as you would seem to be) which did not give him any right to belittle the religion of his ancestors. The fact is, that the comment does attempt to belittle Judaism, to say that it is less than Christianity.

That it may be historical is of no consequence. Also historical are many other even far more offensive quotes.

Any comment which belittles or demeans another group, whether religious, racial, or whatever, has no place on a recreational site. Let bigots use their own sites to push that #$%&* to other bigots.

That has no place here. IMHO

TONY BOY
03-19-2008, 06:10 AM
All I can suggest is: if you find it offensive, ask Stephen to purge it from the system. I notice quite a few Bible quotes, both from the Old and the New Testment, which aren't properly cited, but listed as "unattributed". To me, this is kind of offensive. If it is from the Bible, it should be noted as such. But to be honest, I just don't think about it. There are a few quotes calling popes and priests derogatory names. They are usually from someone like Shelly, or others who were anti-religious bigots. But we know that, and it is only a quote from them, not an endorsement, one way or the other. As far as I am concerned, anything from Milan Kundera should be purged from the site because he is not only stupid, but never makes any sense about anything. But that is just me. :)

jdege
03-19-2008, 08:13 PM
Tony,

I see many pro-Christian quotes on the site, and ignore them as we both do the occasional atheistic quote. There is a difference between that which promotes and that which belittles or demeans.

I don't think that anyone who is familiar with Disraeli could reasonably interpret him as having intended to belittle or demean Judaism.

"In all these church discussions, we are apt to forget that the second Testament is avowedly only a supplement. Jehovah-Jesus came to complete the 'law and the prophets.' Christianity is completed Judaism, or it is nothing. Christianity is incomprehensible without Judaism, as Judaism is incomplete; without Christianity. What has Rome to do with its completion; what with its commencement? The law was not thundered forth from the Capitolian mount; the divine atonement was not fulfilled upon Mons Sacer. No; the order of our priesthood comes directly from Jehovah; and the forms and ceremonies of His church are the regulations of His supreme intelligence. Rome indeed boasts that the authenticity of the second Testament depends upon the recognition of her infallibility. The authenticity of the second Testament depends upon its congruity with the first. Did Rome preserve that? I recognize in the church an institution thoroughly, sincerely, catholic: adapted to all climes and to all ages. I do not bow to the necessity of a visible head in a defined locality; but were I to seek for such, it would not be at Rome. I cannot discover in its history however memorable any testimony of a mission so sublime. When Omnipotence deigned to be incarnate, the Ineffable Word did not select a Roman frame. The prophets were not Romans; the apostles were not Romans; she, who was blessed above all women, I never heard she was a Roman maiden. No, I should look to a land more distant than Italy, to a city more sacred even than Rome."

bansaisequoia
03-20-2008, 07:06 PM
I don't particularly like this quote from Disraeli, and I did give it an offensive rating. However, I'm not sure I'd call on Stephen to remove it from the site. I don't think anyone's espousing any beliefs or opinions here. There are so many quotes by myriad notables who contradict each other, that it's obvious no particular ideology is being promoted. I see all sorts of quotes I don't like by Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Niccolo Machiavelli,Aleister Crowley et alii, but I'll never demand that Stephen remove anything.

smoochie222
03-21-2008, 02:42 AM
maradnu or jack steely or drama nut

I am offended by you. You are "somebody feigning high principles: somebody who pretends to have admirable principles, beliefs, or feelings but behaves otherwise". You didn't take the time to find the origin of the quote and then you posted highly inflammatory offensive quotes.

This is after all, just a game.

Love, Hope, Peace, and Charity

maradnu
03-22-2008, 06:17 AM
I stand by my position on the quote, however much additional of Disraeli that you may include. To say that Christianity is completed Judaism is to say that Judaism is incomplete. To say that Judaism is incomplete is to say that it is inferior to Christianity, that is lower in station or importance. To belittle is to portray something as less important. And that is exactly what Disraeli was attempting to do. He was saying that Judaism laid the groundwork, but that Christianity is the full flowering of G-d's message, and effectively that Judaism is missing the rest, is incomplete, and inferior.

maradnu
03-22-2008, 06:38 AM
I love you too.

The point of the inflammatory quotes is that just because something is "historical" does not make it okay to say.

I find all those quotes, including the Disraeli to be offensive.

Cryptograms are 'just a game', and I do not come to this site to see my religion belittled.

Ann Coulter said something similar to the Disraeli quote, and got in hot water for it, deservedly in my opinion. The quote on Islam and Mohammed was used by Pope Benedict in a speech, and he was deservedly criticized for it. The other two quotes I listed are revolting beyond words, but unfortunately there have been and still are people who believe such.

The fact that people said these things does not mean any of them, including the Disraeli, should be on this site, which is the point I was trying to make, which seems to have escaped you.

jdege
03-22-2008, 04:11 PM
I find all those quotes, including the Disraeli to be offensive.
I find censorship to be offensive, and would be offended should any quotes be removed from this site simply because someone was offended by them.

So, tell me, why should the administrators of this site worry more about your being offended than about me being offended?

smoochie222
03-22-2008, 05:16 PM
You made your point in an ugly, unneccessary way. There are plenty of misogynistic quotes that I don't like, so I mark them as offensive. I prefer to play the game without censorship. Posting other offensive quotes to make a point is being hypocritical, hurtful, and full of hate. BTW, I change the channel when Ann Coulter is on.

maradnu
03-22-2008, 08:35 PM
"I find censorship to be offensive, and would be offended should any quotes be removed from this site simply because someone was offended by them."

Then if the truly revolting quotes in my one post (or even worse things) should be put as cryptograms on this site, they should be left?

General principle (in most of western society) is that hate speech is not protected. One person's right to free speech ends when it encroaches on another person's right to a safe and secure life. Far too often, more serious anti-semitic acts start with mildly anti-semitic statements and escalate from there.

You may think what you wish, and may say what you wish, however hateful, on any number of forums, on-line and off. This is an entertainment site, and quotes which disparage any group of people, whether racial, national, religious, or whatever, has no place on this site. JMHO

TONY BOY
03-22-2008, 08:45 PM
I'm a lawyer, and I've got to tell you that Disraeli quote is hardly hate speech, and it doesn't threaten you in any way. How about this: "Lord, confound this surly sister, blight her brow with blotches blister, cramp her larynx, lung and liver, in her guts a galling give her." J. M. Synge .... maybe just s little hateful toward women? If we start purging quotes from this site, there is won't be any left. Someone would be offended by "Mary had a little lamb...." Women's rights groups because she only got a lamb and not a cow, and PETA because there was an animal in a subservient position.

maradnu
03-22-2008, 08:53 PM
Yes, I am full of hate, when I see or hear a group of people being disparaged. If I am a part of the group being disparaged, I am also defensive. When I hear my religion being belittled, I take offense. I also take offense at other religions and their adherents being demeaned. Do I go overboard in my response? Sometimes.

However offensive the quotes I used, I was arguing ideas and principles. I did not engage in personal attacks or name calling. Maybe you should take a hard look in the mirror.

Peace,
Jack

maradnu
03-22-2008, 09:06 PM
The Disraeli quote is pretty mild as anti-semitic remarks go, but it is still anti-semitic. Ain't just me what thinks so, but when Ann Coulter made a similar remark, lots of folks seemed to think so.

As a lawyer, you understand that there are lots of gray areas in human behavior and human actions. For the protection of various parts of society, lines must still be drawn, and then we can argue over the gray areas.

I do not want to strip the site of any quotes, any more than I want the truly revolting quotes that I brought up to be on the site. Where do we draw the line? How do we decide what belongs here and what does not? G-d knows there is plenty of free speech in our society, and plenty of people making very revolting remarks. Can we not have a few refuges from the turmoil and just have some inoffensive entertainment?

TONY BOY
03-22-2008, 10:19 PM
Comparing Ann Coulter to Disraeli is a stretch unto itself.... she makes all sorts of outrageous comments, which I won't deal with here. She does it because it gets her publicity and she sells books. So it is a marketing scheme, and nothing else. There is a difference to be made concerning quotes attributed to a person who lived in the past, and statements which are made to influence people, or to sway opinion. I don't see anything on this site which could be interpretted as being "persuasive" to any particular religion or philosophy. It is just a bunch of quotes from real people, or unattributed sayings. I would say that the only remedy you have about a quote you find to be really offensive is to ask that it be removed. Otherwise, what is the point? We know you are offended. But now what? The remark by Disraeli is just his opinion. So what? It doesn't change anything about what you believe or don't believe. It doesn't change my opinion about anything. I doubt anyone is out there saying to themselves: "Gosh, Disraeli thought Christianity was the fulfillment of Judaism, I think I will become a Christian!" I just can't imagine that happening. When I was first on the site, I ran into a quote, "Let him who is without sin, cast the first stone." It was written as "unattributed". Of course it is from the New Testament. But in the end, what difference does it make? This is only an entertainment site, not a philosphical or religious site. There are several quotes from Thomas Kempis who was a 15th century monk who wrote "The Imitation of Christ". The quotes on this site are from that book. But they are only attirbuted to Thomas Kempis, with no mention that they are from the "Imitation of Christ". So what? I suppose if it were properly referenced, some might find that offensive. One thing: I have run into some quotes that have led me to research various philosophers and authors. And what's up with all the Irish Murdoch quotes? I thought it was Iris Murdoch,

maradnu
03-23-2008, 12:09 AM
I made a comment on another thread about Irish Murdoch versus Iris Murdoch. Another person said it was a widespread mistake, pulling in a link from another site with Iris's name incorrect. I guess that makes it okay, at least in his or her mind.

jdege
03-23-2008, 01:04 AM
I made a comment on another thread about Irish Murdoch versus Iris Murdoch. Another person said it was a widespread mistake, pulling in a link from another site with Iris's name incorrect. I guess that makes it okay, at least in his or her mind.
Do a bit of googling. She's called "Irish Murdoch" consistently, by a great many people who were quite familiar with her and her work - including a number of her biographers.

"Irish Murdoch" doesn't seem to be a mistake, but rather a name she was widely known by.

jdege
03-23-2008, 01:08 AM
The remark by Disraeli is just his opinion.
Actually, no. The remark by Disraeli is an opinion expressed by a character in one of Disraeli's novels. That he wrote a character who believed it doesn't mean that he believed it.

Was Samuel Clemens a racist, because he wrote novels with characters who expressed racist beliefs?

maradnu
03-23-2008, 01:22 AM
I googled "Iris Murdoch" and got 503,000 hits. I googled "Irish Murdoch and got 2,290 hits. I get 4,080 hits on "Iris Murdock". All I can say is that typos happen. Do 2,290 typos make something right? I can get 13,200 hits on "Steeley Dan", does that make that right?

Haven't we about beaten the other to death?

TONY BOY
03-23-2008, 01:34 AM
I think the context of a quote is irrelevant here. If a totally offensive remark is made in a novel, that is the writer's license. The author may be reflecting a real attitude in fictionalized form, or simply using a character to state their own hidden belief. It is unknowable whether Mark Twain was a racist. Who really knows? But offensive quotes from his novels would not be appropriate here. I just don't see the quote from Disraeli all that offensive. But obviously, Maradnu does. If it is that upsetting, just get rid of it. There is a quote from Malcolm X that goes something like: "Show me a capitalist, and I will show you a bloodsucker." I think it is dumb quote. I have gotten it more than once. I am glad to see it, because I know it and can solve it in short order, and get on to the next puzzle. Concerning Irish Murdoch: I am always learning something, even on this site! If there were to be a quote from someone along the lines of: "I left Christianity, and found my true meaning in Judaism, (or Islam, or Buddhism, etc.)" I wouldn't make much of it.... this happens all the time in the real world. And it is just someone's opinion (or a character's opinion in a novel). It doesn't mean I am going to lose my faith, and it doesn't threaten me in any way.

maradnu
03-23-2008, 05:10 AM
It is true that Disraeli used that quote in his novel "Tancred", but according to Wikipedia (which is admittedly not inerrant) he also said the same thing in Parliament in support of a bill to allow Jews to sit in the House of Commons. Based on that, I would assume that it was indeed Disraeli's opinion.

What offends me most about the quote is a patronizing attitude by a Christian towards Judaism. It seems to imply that Christians have the whole truth, while Jews have only part of the truth. To me that is both patronizing and belittling.

Perhaps ironically, many members of Parliament felt that what Disraeli said was blasphemous (again according to Wikipedia).

cyclisted
03-27-2008, 03:49 PM
Well, as of 3/27 the quote, offensive or not, is still in the database. At least all the discussion led me to quite a quick solve. My thoughts on the subject of offensivity are mostly in line with what bonsaisequoia said earlier. we're here to solve puzzles, not to espouse opinions. I have no idea how the quotes for the site are compiled. It would seem to me that, given our voracious appetites, it would be highly unlikely that anyone would have time to evaluate the quotes for offensiveness or any other quality.

Ed

TONY BOY
03-27-2008, 06:13 PM
I got the same quote last week, and due to all the attention, I solved it in about 20 seconds.... so .... some good has come of all the banter! :)

QueenMean
03-29-2008, 10:51 PM
Judaism is incomplete. Jews are still waiting for their messiah, are they not? That is what the quote is saying. If Christ was not the actual messiah, then Christianity is nothing. It is not a quote against Jews. People who look to be offended in everything ever said must lead very weary lives.

maradnu
03-30-2008, 02:37 AM
Maybe I am "weary" - though mostly of people who show up to make judgements of other people or their religions. Personally, I'd be happy to argue religion with you, though a cryptogram site is not the forum for that. Then again, you've yet to actually do a cryptogram as of this point.

QueenMean
03-30-2008, 03:06 AM
Actually, I was one of the first members to join the site and I just haven't re-registered since the crash and have been playing with an anonymous account since statistics aren't all that important to me. So perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to spout off about facts that you know nothing about. It's that same kind of quick to judge that led to you creating this thread which, frankly, no one agrees with you about. You seem to have no problem judging others but get tweaked when it happens to you. A persecution complex is so very unattractive in a modern individual.

smoochie222
03-30-2008, 05:17 AM
Watch and see that he also has to have the last word. LOL

maradnu
03-30-2008, 06:10 AM
I ain't persecuted - by you or anyone else. I began by expressing a strong opinion about a quote. Amazing how a very few people seem to get hot and bothered about that.

If you follow Christianity, that is fine. Different people have different paths, and if that one suits you - great. I find no need to tear one religion down in order to make my own religion appear better, and I don't feel an entertainment site is the place for "my religion is better than yours" - whatever religion it may be directed against, and I feel that particular quote does that.

There are a few other offensive quotes on this site, including some very sexist quotes that also offend me - even though I ain't of the sex they're directed against. Rather than mention those on this forum, I have contented myself with flagging them as offensive after completing them.

So you just registered to tell people of my ilk what you think of us? How wonderful of you to take time from your unweary life to do so. Since I am indeed getting a bit weary, I'll close by hoping that your life continues to remain as unweary as it has been.

BTW smoochie, it is called replying to comments directed to me - which is a form of dialog or communication. In your case however, since you take some exception to it, I shan't reply to anything more you say.

Actually, I am getting weary of this entire subject. I didn't suspect that a stray rant would get so many people worked up.

smoochie222
03-30-2008, 06:31 AM
When I see your name the word pompous comes to mind.

Live
Love
Laugh

QueenMean
03-30-2008, 01:56 PM
Maradnu,

You know I have to wonder how you manage to live a life relatively unscathed with all the assumptions and presumptions you make about people, expecially with that condescending and judgemental attitude to go with it. I am not Christian. I am not religious at all. Religious people tend to be like you, prone to emotional snaps that lack logic and make you look foolish and I think that's something to be avoided at all cost. I do find it interesting however, that you allow whole hosts of "offensive" posts to remain unchallenged, but this relatively mild comment, which you warped out of all perspective, led you to pitch a wig? It's interesting how the slightest jab can cause the religious fringe to lose their heads, while comments that liken women to cows and what not, pass without a murmur. Cheers.

maradnu
04-01-2008, 02:34 PM
"Three things in human life are important. The first is to be kind. The second is to be kind. And the third is to be kind. "
Henry James

smoochie222
04-02-2008, 04:27 AM
When will it end?

bansaisequoia
04-02-2008, 08:46 PM
"Judaism is incomplete. Jews are still waiting for their messiah, are they not? That is what the quote is saying."

Christians, depending upon their beliefs, might be waiting for the second coming of the Messiah. However, if someone called them incomplete because they're awaiting a second coming of the Messiah, I could understand how they might take umbrage. I may disagree with maradnu as to the severity of the offence of this quote, but I still uphold his right to voice his opinion.

Seekerof
04-04-2008, 06:23 AM
WEll...I do not like anything that TRIES to hurt or demean another or another's race, ethnicity, religion or any other relationship or group he or she identifies with....however, I do think we should all try to be more tolerant and patient with others and not react too quickly if someone does make a statement that could be offensive....and finally though it is up to the person whose group or identity is being derided to say if he or she is offended and is that is the case....the one who did offend should stop.....Seekerof

welk53
04-04-2008, 10:19 PM
If any of you bothered to read, you'd know that the author of that quote, Weiss, is a Jew, went through the concentration camps in Europe and wrote a book about his experience. That is a quote from his book. Therefore, it is very unlikely this is a racial problem, since it is written by a man who is Jewish by nationality, if not by faith. What a tempest in a teapot.

Libra1946
04-15-2008, 07:33 PM
As already stated, it is extremely obvious to everyone that this is a game forum, period. There are thousands of other appropriate places for "off topic" posts, regardless of whether it is offensive or not. Bottom line, this is NOT one of them. We are here only to enjoy cryptograms, nothing more and nothing less. :o

Trolls are a sad fact of life like hackers, spam, Trojans and all other malware. We have to tolerate it if the moderators don't see fit to manage this site a tad more efficiently so that we are not so bothered by such that we unsubscribe. They either care or they don't. :rolleyes: