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View Full Version : Help Cryptogram question!~ thanks a lot


tshan
12-12-2012, 04:42 AM
Hi,
I currently have a very hard time to solve a assignment, which is about the cryptogram:

MMCBT EOERS JYOMR MVRQS TYCCQ ZCEDK OAHGO EBDRB QEDVB THLJP FVETL HBDMH FKGJV PDWIY ORZPF LJLJV JTQQH GPVHD JYZZC EDKOQ AZQLJ LJJTR QQBSS EDQCL VEOCD KCAAK FVVGP HDTFI MKCAR PXQMK JVWCL LCDXC QGRHW ISEQK FQMGQ QHTLC DDORD QCCAK FUWDL YHJSW BUCCA MFYOE QEITJ WMMYL JZSHJ YCCAY EHDTQ EHGQO AYGJV INJFI BEQGR CAYEL LDOWB ZCOMY FAAMF CNPEV MLXVA ZFJDQ SCTEO E


can everyone help me out on this text?? thanks a lot~

Lurker
12-12-2012, 04:56 AM
tshan,

This isn't a simple-substitution code. You're on your own.

Just a heads-up, because you're new: We have to deal with folks rather frequently who try to get us to solve problems and homework for them. We don't really like that. If you want to talk about cryptograms and random thoughts that cross your mind, we're generally friendly people.

Hope you get into the crypto-craze.

tshan
12-12-2012, 05:52 AM
Hi, im a new here, because this question is really too hard for me to solve it, even have no idea to start. It is a question from my teacher's example list, just want to find anyway or ideas that i could use to solve any other similar question like this. if you can help me some, many thanks

gryhnd51
12-12-2012, 09:40 AM
Tshan,
Lurker is quite right that this is NOT a simple substitution code. I seriously doubt that any of us could help you, even if we wanted to.
What teacher?? What class?
We're mostly a bunch of pretty nice folks who love to help when we can, but that's not always possible.

tshan
12-12-2012, 06:44 PM
hi, thanks for replying. it is a college Applied Math course. I think the code start with a double "MM", which means there must be a space between 2 Ms, like M MCBT...and MCBT... should be a word after M, I take a guess that M is more like an "I"?? because it could not be an "A"?? so it will be like "I" "I"CBT...otherwise i cant think out anything else... it is a really hard question. if you guys can help me or any suggestions. thanks

tshan
12-13-2012, 12:58 AM
i was just wonder why u reply this post if you are so rude and unhappy???
am i bothering you something??
you do not have to reply if you do not like it. you do not lose anything, and i do not gain any profit cause this post.

pootie49
12-13-2012, 03:14 AM
You know you re absolutely right tshan.

I deleted my post.
I apologize.
I hope you do get help with this.

chopstix
12-13-2012, 06:55 AM
Hi -

Yes, this is way beyond what happens here at cryptograms.org. There are patterns here however that are interesting:

- that E at the end is the only "word" that is not 5 letters long
- there are double letters all over this thing

So, perhaps you are right, that the double letters somehow signify a space, rather than the actual spaces.... Or, more likely, something else....

Because, there are not enough double letters, so that if that were the case, this phrase would have some awfully long words in them....

It could also be backwards, as it is extremely unusual for any phrase in English to end with a single letter.

Also, this may not have anything to do with common language, and have more to do with mathematics....

Whatever the case, I just now saw this thread, and missed the removed comment. But FYI I've seen in the past month or so, 2 posts from new users who were just trying to make themselves feel smarter it seems, so you may have experienced some backlash based on those previous threads.

But, if you'd like to exercise pattern recognition and perhaps come across some interesting quotes, try some of the cryptos here - I've found it quite amusing, if not addicting! :)

cipher4u
12-13-2012, 01:02 PM
Hi,
I currently have a very hard time to solve a assignment, which is about the cryptogram:

MMCBT EOERS JYOMR MVRQS TYCCQ ZCEDK OAHGO EBDRB QEDVB THLJP FVETL HBDMH FKGJV PDWIY ORZPF LJLJV JTQQH GPVHD JYZZC EDKOQ AZQLJ LJJTR QQBSS EDQCL VEOCD KCAAK FVVGP HDTFI MKCAR PXQMK JVWCL LCDXC QGRHW ISEQK FQMGQ QHTLC DDORD QCCAK FUWDL YHJSW BUCCA MFYOE QEITJ WMMYL JZSHJ YCCAY EHDTQ EHGQO AYGJV INJFI BEQGR CAYEL LDOWB ZCOMY FAAMF CNPEV MLXVA ZFJDQ SCTEO E


can everyone help me out on this text?? thanks a lot~

Another oddity... All of the letters of the alphabet are used. It could be that there is a null letter, or two. If you knew which letters were meaningless and removed them from the code it could still possibly be a substitution cipher... grouped in 5s to make it harder for humans to crack?

pootie49
12-13-2012, 07:29 PM
Since the cypher ends in a single letter, try working it backwards.
Remove all double letters that appear ...either just use the letter once
or remove them completely.
ie...the fifth cypher is tyccq
remove the two c's
either replace it with just one
or take them out completely
reverse the order

this is just a guess. do that with every double letter in each occurrence.
reverse the cypher so it starts with e..
then use this...

http://www.blisstonia.com/software/WebDecrypto/

simply enter the cipher and try to see if it can help you.
or try it with the idea you had with the mmbct where there is a space between
double letters.

cypher4u is right all the letters are used and its five letters per "word"
try every fifth word.
i suspect there are null letters in there, im assuming its the double letter instances.
another way to look at it would be to find the most common letter used
count each letter ..find how many times each letter is used and look for a pattern.
the solve could be in the pattern not the letters themselves.
i dont know if this helps but its better than a grouchy response.
good luck.

tshan
12-13-2012, 07:49 PM
thanks everyone's kind help and suggestion, this encoded text message is really different than usual, because it is ordered by group of 5, I think which is the way that our professor try to make it easy to read?? but somehow, it becomes the hard part for others who solve cryptograms in a regular way, usually cryptogram shows the exactly decoded english words separated by regular space.
Example for regular cryptogram:
UQ TYBQ ZMK
WE HAVE FUN

In this case it is more similar like:
UQTYB QZMK
WEHAV EFUN

I think it is the point. But as a new on solving Cryptogram games, I really been a hard time to understand how to guess the letters =.= I just feel crazy when I read a such long message with ridiculous group ordered. Hope you guys could give me more suggestions ^_^ BTW, im a new here, but Im not trying to play u guys and make myself smart, just hope u who is more professional than me, could help me out some. best regards!!

pajarito7
12-14-2012, 05:43 AM
tshan,
Since frequency anaylsis doesn't help with this code, it is likely a polygraphic substitution. Depending on what you are learning in your applied math class, some type of mathematical algorithm is applied to a group of letters to generate the cipher text. If you are studying linear algebra, then it is likely that letters are grouped into digraphs, and then multiplied by a 2x2 matrix key. The letters that are generated each represent two letters in the original text. You would need to find the matrix inverse to decode this, or your professor may have supplied the matrix key. The blocks of 5 letters are just the common way of grouping the digraph substitutions.

pootie49
12-14-2012, 06:18 AM
well ...that was my second theory H.
LOL
smarty pants!

Lurker
12-14-2012, 06:26 AM
She lost me somewhere around "diagraphs".

pootie49
12-14-2012, 08:29 AM
She does that.
Mostly I just smile and nod and look
like I have a cloo.
Luckily she's a real nice lady
No hoity toity there.
(knows that P7 doesnt mind we are speaking
of her in the third person)
Whuts a diagraph?
Is that one of those games they made
with the circles and you put a pen in it
and made designs?
Anyone remember those??
Spirograph... thats it.

tshan
12-14-2012, 09:09 AM
Hi pajarito7,
I think you might in the right track, it need to work out a keyword that could help to inverse to decode and encode this cryptogram. But do you know how to work it out?? because my professor is really an asshole, he never help us on assignment questions, only tell us it is hard and complicated, he cant do it.

fredsevent
12-14-2012, 09:33 AM
Warning : this is a digression

pretty sure I've mentioned it before - groups of five are a classic way to transmit cipher. Back in the day, many ciphers were sent by unreliable methods and the grouping made it easier to detect and fix errors. As for why 5 in particular, I'm sure it has something to do with the facts that we use a base 10 counting system yet 10 is beyond most people's short term memory, while 5 is not.

That stated, there may be a particular reason this cipher is in groups of 5 so you cannot totally discount that. Especially as in classic systems you'd pad out the last one so that you sent all groups of 5.

As for this cipher, I really haven't looked at it. Had you presented it as a puzzle, I would have but I'm afraid I'm of the belief your homework is your homework and you must sink or swim accordingly. Asking your professor and fellow students for help may be fair game, but trying to enlist outside experts seems....

pajarito7
12-14-2012, 06:58 PM
pootie,
I still have my spirograph set!!!
Digraph substitution just means substituting one letter for every two letters in the text. Frequency analysis can still be used since combos like th and sh are much more frequent than zr or qr, but it's a lot more work.

tshan,
you lost me when you called your professor an "a**hole"
I've thrown students out of the lab for less than that.

tshan
12-14-2012, 08:58 PM
Yo come on pajarito7, you should know how ridiculous and sucks a professor never answer students' questions , and always tell them it is too hard for me to solve it, even do not give you a tip and any help after class.

chopstix
12-15-2012, 01:52 AM
Yo tshan -

You're making it very clear that the problem in regards to a math course and not an English or grammar class! ;)

Anyhow, you've previously been polite and rather humble, I suggest you don't tempt the others on this site to come to the defense of seasoned player. It's best to keep it upbeat.

This is not a good forum for you to vent your frustration with your assignment and/or your professor.

Just my 2 cents...

pootie49
12-15-2012, 02:37 AM
yes, he/she's getting cocky

i want to say so much more
however im going to bed
i did say something at the start of this
but then had a soft spot appear
and deleted it
now im wondering if i shoulda
oops should have

ni night everyone

please take care

and my heartfelt condolences to the families
in Connecticut.

cleofish
12-17-2012, 03:58 AM
Warning : this is a digression

pretty sure I've mentioned it before - groups of five are a classic way to transmit cipher. Back in the day, many ciphers were sent by unreliable methods and the grouping made it easier to detect and fix errors. As for why 5 in particular, I'm sure it has something to do with the facts that we use a base 10 counting system yet 10 is beyond most people's short term memory, while 5 is not.

That stated, there may be a particular reason this cipher is in groups of 5 so you cannot totally discount that. Especially as in classic systems you'd pad out the last one so that you sent all groups of 5.

As for this cipher, I really haven't looked at it. Had you presented it as a puzzle, I would have but I'm afraid I'm of the belief your homework is your homework and you must sink or swim accordingly. Asking your professor and fellow students for help may be fair game, but trying to enlist outside experts seems....

Continuing to digress, and in case anyone's interested, I just saw this:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20749632

Wartime code in blocks of 5. GCHQ codebreakers gave up and suggest it can't be solved without some sort of key.

tshan
12-18-2012, 07:35 AM
wow....should i give up

wvwoman
12-18-2012, 08:02 AM
you mean with this forum?

pootie49
12-18-2012, 05:34 PM
print this thread out
bring it to your professor
print all of it out
have him/her read it
then stand tall and say
i dont understand
can you help me please?
if she/he says no
move on and take the grade you get
and apply the energy you used here
in the rest of your studies and you
will do just fine.

** and no never give up.
never give in
and never say never ;)

pajarito7
12-18-2012, 09:23 PM
Thank you, Wise Woman!

fredsevent
12-26-2012, 08:21 AM
I guess we never got an answer. I believe pajarito7 was very likely correct and was probably referring to a Hill cipher. If that's true, some linear algebra techniques might help - let me see.... um... yeah last took that in the old abacus days of the 80's. All forgotten.

If this were an extra credit assignment, that might explain the professor professed behavior.